Innovation in Fintech – Bridging Engineering Creativity and Customer Expectations

Hello and welcome to Movate talks business insights unplugged.

I’m Syriac Joswin senior vice president and head of markets for Movate, your podcast host for the day today. I’m excited to have a very special guest and a good friend of mine, Nick Doulas, with me.

Nick is the senior vice president of engineering at Pangea Money transfer and with over three decades of experience in diverse technology domains.

Nick has been at the forefront of innovation and leadership, driving significant advancements in engineering and product development.

Nick, it’s fantastic to have you as our guest today.

Nick Doulas   2:12

It’s great to be here, Syriac. Nice to chat.

Syriac Joswin   2:15

Thank you, nick.

I’d like to start by talking about your journey, right.

You started your career with Motorola for about 16 years and you were part of a founding team before you landed at Tangia.

Walk us through about your journey. How how did that?

How did that pan out?

Nick Doulas   2:36

Yeah, it’s been fun.

Definitely a few interesting chapters.

You know that.

I think you just highlighted.

Spent a good part of my early career at Motorola through the sort of late 90s, early 2000s.

And you know, you talk about.

Sort of technology and industry trends, you know, really the the chapter I would associate that with is really the the invention and the rise of the mobile Internet.

You know which something we very much take for granted now, but that was really, you know, that era.

As it sort of got into smartphones and so on. And you know at that point, you know, next chapter for me that was most exciting was to then, you know, try to venture off into something small and take advantage of, you know, some of the new emerging techn.

It started with few friends, created a small startup business called Persio that we targeted sort of a mobile marketing space, you know, which was very new thing at the time.

This was all just as the iPhone was coming out, you know.

So there were.

Exciting times there, just kind of riding a new wave of mobile Internet at the time.

Again, something we take for granted now and.

You know that took that up to a certain point, learned a lot of, you know, interesting lessons and everything comparing and contrasting that to, you know, working a much larger, more established company like Motorola.

You know, took that up to a certain point, then kind of interesting. Next chapter for me was moving to Pangea money transfer about six years ago.

This was something that was new to me at the time.

You know, financial services, Fintech again, just sort of as that was, you know, to be considered at at kind of its early stages to see where that’s come to today. You know, it’s pretty, pretty wild ride and I think it’s got a much longer path to go you.

Know in terms of how.

Useful and ubiquitous, that has become in all our lives.

So it’s been fun.

Syriac Joswin   4:37

So interesting.

And Nick, while you were while you were explaining your engineering growth, your entrepreneurial.

Pivot and then this whole fintech, right, so there’s a.

There’s a there’s a convergence of domain. There’s a convergence of that entrepreneurial mindset, and then you’re obviously engineering background.

I’m curious to know.

Has has any of this changed in the last 1015 years?

Clearly, we know that the shelf life of a product.

Reduced, right?

So that’s one thing.

Definitely. I’m sure the the the audience is aware, but what has changed in terms of product development, in terms of engineering, in terms of the domain, what has changed?

Nick Doulas   5:22

Yeah, I think.

Time to market, I think has dramatically changed and I think a lot of that is due to just the the building blocks you can build on today versus what you built on. You know 20 years ago for example.

I think you know, we’re all you know, as as humans and as a civilization, we are all riding on the shoulders of, you know, everyone who came before us. And I think that now the pace of that innovation, I think the last you know generation I think has.

Really picked up.

You look at the things you do to start a business to build a new product today.

Compared to 10 or 20 years ago, you know you had to do so many things yourself from you had to take on so many competencies yourself, whereas you know now teams are very much empowered and enabled to create kind of their unique value add. You know on top.

Of an ecosystem that already exists or services they can outsource.

You know, so that they can really just focus on the core parts of what you needed to do, you know, starting a business now or starting 110 years ago versus.

20 or 30 years ago was a dramatically different. You know how much you needed to get off the ground.

I think you know another key.

Advancement in that is everything you’ve seen around, you know, cloud computing and.

All kinds of fundamental services you can.

You know anything you can think of as a service you know exists today and this, you know, it’s been great for the innovators in those spaces. You know, so that they can focus on their core competencies, but then also.

It enables, you know, these fundamental building blocks that that people can build on to do, you know, new and exciting things.

Syriac Joswin   7:04

Yeah, yeah, you you started saying time to market, right. And and I think I think it’s an important change because I think the biggest influence in that is the customers, right.

The consumers have become more and more savvy.

Their behaviour is with the obviously information everywhere you know, they know what they want, right?

The question I have, and I’m sure the the viewers are thinking, is how are you?

How are you looping in that?

Consumer behavior.

That consumer feedback into your lifecycle product lifecycle development life cycle, how and is there any example you wanna talk to us at at Pangea where you were able to successfully, you know, influence the development of a feature of a of a of something like that based on consum?

Behavior based on consumer ask if you will.

Nick Doulas   8:02

Well, I think you see this play out in a few different ways. You can see it very directly in terms of, you know, if you’re building a product, if you’re building a consumer base product, you typically have all kinds of, you know, analytics.

You use yourself for your team so that you can observe how how your customers, how your users, you know how people use your product.

Other things you can augment that obviously with your focus groups and studies, research studies and so on. But I think the other important thing we all see.

Ourselves, and we know that our customers see as well is you know there’s there’s a wide universe of other compete either directly competing services or similar services that that all of us collectively drawn from each other because we know that that sets consumer expectation right. So if you.

Know if I’m building a financial services app and I’m comparing it to, say, the way up McDonald’s app works OK, I’m not competing with the McDonald’s app, but.

Rumors use that app all the time and that is just one data point that formulates their expectations of how services work. So once they once consumers learn certain behaviors, they then start to train themselves on it.

And they take certain things for granted in terms of, you know, what is considered intuitive user interface, what is considered.

Reasonable expectations of how a product or service should work. You know, this is something that.

Consumers.

People, we all learn this from the collective of every so many different products and services that we interact with today, formulate sort of that foundation. And I think anytime you build something new, you always have to be cognizant of that to recognize that.

Like there’s there’s an established set of patterns out there that people right or wrong.

You know, sometimes people learn things, you know, that are not good but right or wrong.

There’s a there’s a baseline set of patterns that people are accustomed to and.

And you you want to obviously if sometimes if you need to deviate from that ’cause you’re doing something very fundamentally different. You you might need to do that.

But for the most part, you typically don’t wanna do that.

You have a set of expectations that exist in the market, and you and you wanna leverage those as much as possible, especially if you’re dealing with issues of trust and security, right?

So in particular, financial services trusts, you know, security are huge. So you know, you can debate all day long that you’ve developed a more secure way to do something.

Or you can follow the patterns that are already there that people are accustomed to, that people will inherently trust more than something that they need to be confident is better.

Syriac Joswin   10:48

True and and and knowing you and how you sort of give a lot of importance to.

Nick Doulas   10:48

Right.

Syriac Joswin   10:55

Security, trust and and in the domain where you play.

But I think even more important how you understand and you drive customer sentiment within your organization.

The next question would be around how? How are you able to stitch that both in terms of expectations and and security’s a very big players as we all know, especially in the in the Fintech world.

How are you adapting the new age technology?

And we’ll get into Gen. AI in a minute.

But nevertheless, technology is advancing.

You mentioned about cloud computing a little while earlier, right?

Technology is advancing at a very, very fast pace.

How are you incorporating that in your in your team?

How do you do?

You set aside innovation time.

How does a day in life of Nick and his team play out with exploring different technologies?

Nick Doulas   11:45

Yeah, I think.

I think in particular we like to be very careful with sort of where we wanna innovate and where we don’t.

I think at times it’s very easy for for people to choose things that seem intellectually interesting and decide they wanna go innovate there.

So I’ll give you an example. You know cloud computing is is very central to what we do and you know we happen to use AWS, but same story applies to you know all the other major providers as well.

Whereby there’s a giant, diverse set of services that are available, you know, in a in a, in a platform that could be utilized, you know to build products.

At at you know I still remember sort of early days of AWS. The services were super minimal and.

Anytime they came out with some new service, you could take advantage of. You usually wanted to take advantage of it because they were usually solving some major problems that you were left to solve yourself.

Today that that landscape has matured.

To such a degree that you almost it’s more of an exercise in discipline of, of being judicious about which of those services you wanna use, using too many services actually makes your team less productive, right?

Because now you know you. You dabble in a lot of different things and you don’t get good at any of them.

So you know there’s certain spaces like for example in the in the platform and infrastructure side where.

We’re we’re trying to not innovate.

We’re trying to like.

You know very carefully, you know, curate a set of technologies that are, you know, really core to what we do and stay disciplined and focused around those and get really good at those and make sure that those, you know, serve the needs of what we want to accom.

And then you know, turn some of that creative energy to other places that have, you know, a bigger influence on our on our business because no one wants to do innovation for innovation sake.

You know, it’s always more rewarding and more impactful when you actually tie that to some sort of business outcome, so.

You know, for us for what we do.

You know, we we help people.

Move money across borders.

We help at the end of the day it’s a it’s a consumer business.

It’s a person to person business.

People are sending money to each other.

What’s most important for us is, you know what?

We like to simplify a sort of simple, fast and free is what consumers are used to, you know, going back to what we just said a minute ago, people, you know, understand certain.

Patterns and certain expectations of how the market works in general, people have collectively come to the to the to form those expectations.

You know of how they send money to each other.

You see that play out, for example, with a service like Venmo where it’s it’s, you know, very simple, immediate and it’s, you know, for the most part free.

There, you know we those are the drivers of what really moves our business forward and that’s where we want to innovate.

You know, how can we make our service better, simpler, more efficient in terms of how our customers interact with it on a daily basis?

But then you know also how you know, pricing is really key in our, in our industry. We want to make things as as fair and transparent and as low cost as possible for for people you know. But we also need to make a healthy.

Business out of the whole endeavor and so that you know, for example, pricing is is a very big space where we.

Be, you know, are are innovating internally today in terms of how we can, you know sort of thread the needle there of creating something that that is is as simple, fast and free to the degree possible for for customers. While you know we optimize things internally.

To make sure we have a sustainable business.

Syriac Joswin   15:48

Yeah. And I think my, my take away over there is innovation is important, but we also need to know to prioritize. And there are areas where we need to say a no and we stay away and potentially prioritize those use cases those.

Functions or areas which will have a tangible ROI and that’s what you are trying to lead with you and your team is that is that a fair sort of summary of how you?

Nick Doulas   16:15

Yeah, absolutely.

Yeah. Yeah, that’s a that’s a great way to say it, yes.

Syriac Joswin   16:19

Excellent. Excellent. So so that said, now everyone’s talking about Gen. AI, Nick.

Right. Everyone’s talking about Gen. AI and I want to.

I want to bring up a few. I want to bring another angle to this is and I know this. Although you can correct me that one of the important days in in a year for Pandey is Mother’s Day, right?

So I want to try to see how technology and that very important day because of large financial transaction, how are you?

How are you?

How are you integrating this? This technology in particular with some of those?

Benefits you’re taking to your customer. Some of those important milestones is, Jenny, I playing a role.

Will it play a role or is it just another, you know, elephant in the room?

Nick Doulas   17:11

I think it will, I guess.

Let me let me set a little.

Let me elaborate on some of the context you just described in terms of, you know, for us, this is a big day because you know people people send money to each other on a daily basis for all kinds of typically practical needs. You know paying bills and you.

Syriac Joswin   17:17

Yeah.

Nick Doulas   17:29

Know all kinds of needs they have.

Mother’s Day represents a day that a lot of people you know in our in that use our product will send money to to their mother’s, you know, as a gift at that time.

And why that’s particularly notable for us is it all happens in a very short time window, right? So.

You know, in terms of strain, it puts on our systems.

Technical, operational and so on.

You know that’s that’s definitely a a critical time for us. And you know it’s it’s a time where we can see the connections.

You know that that are being made.

There for you know, for our customers.

That’s where you see that.

You know you’re you’re not just seeing these opaque nameless.

Soulless transactions.

Kind of flowing through your system. You you see that you know, these are people that are touching each other’s lives in small but important ways.

And then in terms of you know how some of the technology factors into that, I think for us this is still pretty early.

I think even overall, you know industry wide in terms of AII think I think we’re still in in early early phases here of where I think this is ultimately going to go for us.

Right now, we’re not yet using this.

I would say in any big way.

For anything directly customer facing, I think that for us the easier opportunities you know, to get into this first is around sort of things we use in our internal systems, right.

So if you think about, you know how people interact with customers, you know, it’s a very typical thing you would see like in a call center or wherever where internal information is sort of curated and optimized so that you know, you’re essentially guiding.

Humans that are that are making decisions internally, either in terms of how they deal with customers.

Or analyze data internally. So I would say at this point we haven’t yet kind of made major investments in terms of how we directly.

Interface in in a way that customers directly see that, but definitely for us where that where that frontier sits right now is around the area of what I mentioned around pricing, right.

So for us, you know, we as much as we aim to optimize getting the the best cost for everyone.

That is, that is a place that is getting, you know, continued refinement and applying AI to that space is something that, you know, we’re very much looking at this point.

Syriac Joswin   20:00

And I’m sure I and my viewers are also equally interested. Are you?

Are you applying Gen. AI in your personal life?

In your professional also you know not essentially like is it. We hear that it hey, it helps you in presentation.

It helps you draft a better e-mail faster, are you?

Are you tapping in any of it or are you?

Are you a proponent of it?

Nick Doulas   20:22

I would say at this point I’m I’ve a relatively light user.

Just myself, you know, I would say.

I definitely dipped my toes in there and use this for some fairly casual things or I would say I am probably more in the space of of.

Watching the progressions and watching the types of problems that can be solved by it and you know, dabbling with them occasionally, I I wouldn’t say yet that this has made like a dramatic increase in my day-to-day productivity.

Although to be honest, I think it should. I you know, I I definitely think I’m a bit behind in terms of how much I’ve let this seep into, you know, my day-to-day life.

But I I see it play out with other people.

I definitely see it play out much more easily with younger generations of people that just like absorb this like a sponge and have have run with it.

So I definitely I would say.

Have a ways to go myself.

Syriac Joswin   21:19

Yeah. No, I agree with you. And and my personal experience has been it’s it’s involves a lot of unlearning and like you said, the the younger ones, the Gen. Z’s and Ys and Alphas, I think there’s less of an learning for them and it’s more of just.

Being adaptive and improvising and moving on and just picking it up versus some of us who have to sort of unlearn the way we do and adapt this. But I think it’s invariable it has, it will.

Nick Doulas   21:36

Mm hmm.

Syriac Joswin   21:44

Become part of our lives.

You know, the phones have now been, you know, intelligent.

They they give you guidance as to what’s the right thing, what’s not the right thing.

So I think I think it’s a matter of time this will be part of our.

Nick Doulas   21:53

Yeah.

Syriac Joswin   21:55

Of our daily lives as well.

Let aside the professional life of ours, Nick.

Nick Doulas   22:01

Well, you know, at some point at some point it will ultimately disappear, right?

Like like like. It’ll become so prevalent.

It’s invisible.

Syriac Joswin   22:07

Yes, yes.

Nick Doulas   22:08

I think that’s the point where it become as as true adoption or you’re using it all the time anyway, but you don’t think of it as AI anymore.

It’s just, it’s just a natural part of some other interaction.

Syriac Joswin   22:18

Yes, yes. No.

Agreed on on AI. Just want to I I have a one fundament question on AI especially General AI. I’ve been reading a lot about engineering productivity right and and how Gen. AI is is impacting that and I don’t want to take as an example but but your own.

You know, thought leadership on that topic.

You know, Forbes is talking about it.

The many articles written about it, the generative AI is impacting and if not already.

On improving engineering productivity, right, whether it’s on the QE side with some dev side, what’s your take on it, Nick?

Nick Doulas   22:56

Yeah, I think we’ve started using this a bit on the dev side.

That you also see this play out, you know, with a lot of developers that are also relatively younger, right?

Like they take it for granted and they absorb it in in a similar way that I just described of how, you know, younger people in general absorb it more broadly.

So this is something that you know we’ve we’ve started to use and we’ve seen some, some definitely anecdotal cases where you know people get.

Good use out of something like copilot for example is you know, and there’s many comparable products to that, but I think.

People use for a lot of their day-to-day tasks around software development.

You know, I think that.

I my.

My take on this is I’d love to see this play out for a little bit longer period of time, just so that I wouldn’t say that I could point to exactly like how we’ve measured the improvements we get from we all.

We all know they’re there.

The people that use it day in and day out.

You know, view it as a no brainer that you know they’re they’re they’re getting productive gains out of this.

You know, I I wouldn’t say that it’s bubbled up yet in terms of you know, I can’t go to my CEO yet and say like, hey, we’re we’re shipping things to market 10% faster because of this, you know, not sure how well we’ll get to a point.

Where we can, you know, really put some meaningful measurements around it. But you know, you can’t measure everything.

Syriac Joswin   24:23

Yeah. And I think especially in your in your industry where security is so, so important, right?

I think I think it it’s also, it’s also gonna play an important role as to how it sort of gets all the compliance, regulatory and other things as well, right as you, even if it’s internal, maybe I’m sure there’s an impact and there’s there will be that there.

Will be that thing at the back of your mind as to.

You know how much can you?

How much can you tap on it?

But I’m sure you know, as as you said, as things improve as things.

Nick Doulas   24:49

Yep.

Syriac Joswin   24:54

You know, there’s an advancement to it.

I’m sure the adoption will also happen.

On that topic, lastly on technology, is there something new coming down the line?

Do you? Do you?

What’s the future looking like?

Right, right.

So obviously some of this will advance, but you know is there something? Is there a Gen. AI plus plus?

Is there a? Is there something else which is down the line which our viewers want to know that, hey, this is where the future is going to?

Nick Doulas   25:26

Well, that, that that’s hard one. I I think if I could tell you that reliably, I think I’d have a different job.

I think you know, I think it’s interesting to reflect on how even the previous waves came about, right. I think that.

Before you know.

You know the first mainstream version of ChatGPT came out.

I think that was really the the tipping point, right where this this really started to take off for people. I think if you were, you know, to go back a year before that point in time.

You know, obviously the people have been working on this for a very long time, but you know, nobody saw that hockey stick.

Growth that happened at that point. So I think it there’s, there’s always other frontiers that people are working on, but it’s it’s hard to see sometimes, you know when you’re going to get that type of growth. And then I think it’s also interesting to see like are you?

Gonna sustain that growth, right? So.

You know no different than how previous waves of this have gone.

You know, if you think of all the.

Sort of the hype cycle that that came with, you know, decentralized crypto and you know, long before that, the original sort of Internet boom and all kinds of other, you know, cycles that have that have played out.

You know, there’s there’s usually an overinflated cycle there.

Some things people get very aggressive with and they try, some of them fail. Many of them persist and so the overall trend, you know, sticks and and it takes.

But there’s definitely some casualties along the way, you know.

You don’t know exactly what’s really.

Stick and so in that sense, you know it’s it’s, it’s hard to say really what the next, you know, big wave will be.

You know definitely that that that’s not like the where I’m kind of focused on today.

I’m. I can’t say I’m really looking that far in the future.

Syriac Joswin   27:17

No, I I agree.

Because sometimes we don’t know what we don’t know right at this point of time, but I think I think what I’m particularly sort of keeping an eye is how is this whole AI gonna impact healthcare?

Nick Doulas   27:21

Mm hmm.

Syriac Joswin   27:30

I think I think that’s that’s a segment where you know we would see some advancements in terms of how healthcare in itself is going to evolve. And on the other side, how all of this is going to impact our environment, right?

Because you know it’s going to.

It’s going to eat up a lot of.

Resources, right? So.

Your your two cents on that.

Nick Doulas   27:52

Yeah, I think I think the environmental part you know is is definitely a pretty substantial short term problem. But I I have to think that you know we’re going to find way better ways you know to address some of that.

You know, I think it’s grown very quickly and I think you know a lot of sort of energy consumption that you’ve seen you know has has grown really dramatically really in a you know short period of time.

I would expect that to level off and I I would expect that to become a more manageable issue over time.

I I don’t see that as a long term threat.

But definitely a short term problem now where it’ll apply. I I think you know the fundamental things you gotta look around and see, you know, any place where you’re looking at.

Patterns and predictions you know are are, you know, your these systems are all trained on previous patterns and they make predictions based on what they see before, like at at the most basic level, that’s what they all do. And you know, you think of a space like health.

It’s it’s obvious that.

So much of what we do there.

Either in terms of you know, on the diagnostic side or on, you know, development of new drugs and things like that.

The you can just see like, really, really enormous, enormous potential there.

I mean, obviously I don’t work in that space, but just as a as a as a person who just watches everything in the industry. I mean, I would expect really, really massive gains on that in the next.

I don’t know five to 10 years.

Syriac Joswin   29:18

Yeah, absolutely. And and at Movate, we have some of our engagements in in those segments.

So. So we’re clearly seeing.

Dollars being set aside to, you know, look at that and see how that advancement can be brought in.

Nick your professional career has been clearly impressive and and I’m sure myself and the audience learned so much about perspective, right.

It’s all about how you see technology improving technology impacting.

I want to know a little bit about yourself right.

What you do outside work? What’s your passion?

No, you’re an empty nester. A little bit about your family, so I’m sure all of us are very curious to know the other side of Nick.

Nick Doulas   29:54

Yeah.

Sure, sure.

Yeah, I mean point you referenced.

I have a couple older kids who are 20 and 20 and 22.

So they’re, you know, college age at this point.

They’ve definitely out of the house, which has created a new, you know, interesting chapter.

You know, for my wife and I. But it’s also interesting, you know, to see obviously. And you know, when you have kids, you raise them, you go through a bunch of different chapters in their journey.

It’s it’s super interesting to see them, you know, at this stage of life, you know where they’re just sort of.

Learning who they are and who they want to be and what they want to pursue long term, and I think that that’s always an interesting point where.

You know when you have younger kids, you’re you’re much more so guiding them, you know, keep them safe and and and all that. But as they become adults, right.

I mean, they are.

They’re going to pursue their own path and you know at this point you’re you’re providing guidance and everything, but you’re not.

You’re you’re you’re not doing what you’re you were doing when they were much younger. So it’s always interesting to see, you know, how how kids grow up and the people they become in the past, they choose and.

And where they take things, it’s, you know, definitely exciting to kind of like see the next generation and.

You know where where they take things.

I think we all have higher aspirations as a Society of where the next generation is gonna take all the advancements.

You know that we’ve seen play out over the previous generation.

You know beyond that definitely.

It’s it’s, you know, having kids out of the house is definitely giving me some time to pursue some other things that we’re always, you know, much more difficult 10 years ago.

You know my wife and I definitely like to to travel and go see new places.

Definitely had a lot of time to.

Pursue some other interests. You know, I think things outside of technology, you know, I would say have probably taken on a greater interest for me in the last few years, really just more studying history, studying not just the history of technology, but also just, you know, human civil.

And observing how some of the things we’re going through, you know, at a pretty rapid pace right now.

Have have previous historical precedents and you know, understanding how there was a world before we all got here right before we were all born and just.

Putting putting today’s events and the future events into the context of, you know.

Our longer term, you know, history as people.

Syriac Joswin   32:28

So does does history repeat?

Is is it true with with your? With your few years of analysis?

Do we see history repeating in a cycle or something?

Nick Doulas   32:38

I mean I, you know not.

Not verbatim, right?

But what is?

I forgot who said it.

You know history doesn’t repeat, but it rhymes, right?

Syriac Joswin   32:44

Right.

Nick Doulas   32:45

You know, I think you see some of some of what is playing out now, let’s say with Gen. AI or what’s played out, you know, more broadly with Internet and and all the advancements of the last 20 years. You know you can definitely go back to all the.

Way back to like printing press and all kinds of other sort of information advancement, dissemination of of.

Information over, you know, various mechanisms and how that’s played out in society. I think that, you know, definitely what does repeat. I think you’ll find is a lot of the sort of apprehensions that people have a lot of the optimism that people have.

Those patterns tend to play out in a in somewhat similar ways, because I think at the end of the day, you know, we’re still humans, you know humans of, you know, few 100 years ago are mostly the same as they are today.

Obviously, our experiences are a bit different, but.

You know at our core, I think we’re.

I think we’re the same.

Syriac Joswin   33:43

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Nick, we are towards the end of the episode and I’m sure our listeners would like to sort of hear some final words from you in terms of, you know, your professional take away your, your, your, your personal lesson any any for the young guys, right for the young?

You know, engineers for the young folks and and this would be, you know, broadcasted globally, so.

You know from other parts of the world, right?

Who? Who want to, you know, sort of.

Who are inspired by your journey and want to sort of see you as as as how they can be the next nick right in wherever they are in their career.

So any any last thoughts on both your professional take away a little bit of personal for the for the viewers?

Nick Doulas   34:29

Yeah, I I guess you know what?

I what I often tell people is to just, you know, have some context of of where we all came from and and, you know, I mentioned before that we’re kind of, you know, building on the shoulders of of, of people who came and and ideas that came before.

Us and just realized that you know there there’s much more we can do with all of this, you know, and not just in terms of technology, but as as, as as people and as a society. You know, I think that.

There’s a basic human.

Intent and the desire to kind of want to do more, want to do things better, both for ourselves as individuals and for society as a whole.

You know, I think that.

There’s the, the, the the advancements of the of the world and and individuals.

I would say over the next 20 years will definitely amaze us over, you know.

What what has come before us and you know, we’re all a part of that right.

Everybody, everybody has a small contribution to that.

And, you know, people should.

Obviously we can all ride the wave, but I think we’re all kind of making the next wave.

So I think that everybody looking forward should feel like, you know, they’re a small part of that.

Syriac Joswin   35:48

Yeah, and and I think my two cents on that would also be lift the moment as well.

Right. Things will move, things will progress, and you gotta you gotta live the moment. You’re gonna be happy and content in what we have, isn’t it?

Nick Doulas   35:53

For sure.

Syriac Joswin   35:59

Otherwise, it’s like the next best, yeah.

Nick Doulas   35:59

Yeah. I mean, life is not just about progress, right?

I mean, you have to actually live your life, so for sure.

Syriac Joswin   36:05

Correct, correct, correct.

Thank you so much. Being with us, Nick today.

We appreciate your time, your insights. It’s always a pleasure to meet you in person and and and to do this podcast with you, Nick.

Nick Doulas   36:10

That’s my personal opinion.

Great. I definitely appreciate it.

We’ll talk again soon.

Syriac Joswin   36:20

Thank you.